For those of you watching. Say, when's the bar open? Hey guys, welcome to the W-O-F-B podcast. I am your host today. I have a little co-host surprise as we kick off season two, Angie Weber from Nikotati Design. So here today, we're gonna do lots of fun stuff. So first we're gonna go over the W-O-F-B and Cameo Studio Designs plus Laticry all sponsor this podcast. And what is super, super exciting is LATICRE has products for all of you DIY enthusiasts. They have products for contractors and tile experts. And today with season two, we're going to dive deep into honey versus the hammer. However, we want to dive into the world of home improvements with LATICRE as our sponsor today. Are you planning, right, your next tiling project or tackling a big renovation? Ensure a successful installation each and every time with the most comprehensive assortment of innovative tile and stone installation material available worldwide. That's LATICRI, guys. 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Cameo, studio design, principal there, also founder and designer of Designer Dopamine. Angela has done some work with me. Angie, season two, I want to dive into some topics with you. So season two is all about the psychological almost pattern as a business owner. Are you more honey or hammer approach? when you take on jobs. For me, hammer is what builds strength and honey is what feeds growth. And we can do, we can, we can be all the above, but typically what is like your approach? Let's say if you're meeting a client for the first time, let's start there. I think I'm always a little bit of both. It depends on the client and the client vibe. If there is a client that is just very undecisive and all over the place, and I can already tell that we're going to have a million change orders, then I absolutely bring the hammer in. I think my natural personality is just very much more hammer than honey. I think anyone that knows me knows that about me. I think you're the same way. I think we're both just naturally hammer women. Working on the honey is always something that I have to keep on the forefront. And being in the industry this long, you kind of learn to just go with the flow. And when you have to bring out the big guns, you just do it. Yeah. And I think a lot of times for me, and I have to change perspective sometimes because sometimes I'm dealing with clients where I'm teaching, maybe it's about the linear LED, maybe it's an installer, maybe it's doing linear lighting through a whole spec house. And so we just talk about innovation and there's empathy that comes along with that support, nurturing towards clients. But Then I shift gears and let's say I'm on a residential job site with, you know, maybe a newer installer that isn't confident in something. And so I come in with that empathy, but also that hammer of like, you know, hey, man, you're the installer. Be confident in what you're doing. We know, though, that, you know, for labor bees, so to speak, if you give them honey, we feed them. Versus you take a hammer, you know what I mean? You take a hammer to a beehive and you're in trouble. And I've taken hammers, I've taken hammers to beehives before and commercial, you know, job sites where there's so much going on and You know, at times I feel like that I do have to bring that hammer to either stay in control of my bees, you know, butts down. So, you know, what's a perspective for you? Let's say you're on a job site and. Things are going well. And then the client starts to change. Oh, I don't like that tile. Can you take it out? Because the lot doesn't match, right? So they supply their own tile, hypothetically. Like how do you deal then with the client, hammer or honey? Yeah. So... It's happened a million times, I think, to a lot of us where change orders, especially something's already installed and then they don't like it or whatever. And it always goes back to those initial expectations that we set at the beginning of the project before they even signed, before they even paid. And so I think at the beginning, it might be something that's a little bit of honey of, hey, these are your expectations. And then when stuff hits the fan, that's when their hammer comes down, because I will never. take the fall and I'll never make my installers take the fall for something that is totally the client's responsibility. And so I'll sternly remind them, hey, this is our contract. Remember when I said that X, Y, Z, And if we know whatever the hammer has to do to get that done, I mean, there's always just a quite a bit of a balance. But in that scenario, you know, I would just say, you know, we discussed this. It's outlined in our contract. We specifically mentioned these. This is what happens when you buy your own tile and you don't check your die lots. So that's something that's your responsibility. We are more than happy to demo it and start over. Here's your change order for $10,000. Right. Ooh, that's a good shower girl. You know, and I think that that essentially is what a contract is. A contract is the honey of setting the boundaries, right? You know, there was, I remember years ago, whenever I first started, I was so excited that I was able to finally contract with a builder. Right. And I, you know, my contract was very fluid with him. There's lots of honey because I wanted the job, you know, right. It was kind of like this expectation with myself, like I want this job. So I'm going to pull a little bit away from expectation limitation and towards him because I wanted that job. And that was a really tough lesson that was learned because I really should have set those boundaries up front because All of my contracts then for the next six months all went to this one builder. And what would happen is we would show up to a job site and that tile wouldn't be there. So we would unload the trucks. The guys would get up to the room. You know what I mean? Like it was just like this false notion now that like, shit, now I got to come back in with a hammer. Right. add, you know, if product isn't there, well, now it's a $150 change order or not $150 change order, $150 fee for me to pull my tools and to come back to the job site when, you know, the tile is there. So years and years ago, and I should have used this same philosophy years and years ago. I think you guys know this about me. I used to run a drug kind of rehab center in North St. Louis for pregnant heroin addicts. And that was right out of, you know, graduation. And my aunt, who worked through, you know, the Catholic Charities at that time, here I was maybe 29 years old and going to walk into a house of 26 women. And I was going to be the boss. I was running the beehive, right? And I remember I was so... I was so nervous. But what my aunt taught me, and I should have used it in the same philosophy, and now I do for everything. And she always said to me, Cam, you have to go in very hard. You got to set those boundaries. You got to set those expectations, bam, right out of the gate. Because if you go in soft, you can never get that. You can't ever bring that hardness, that caliber up there. Yeah. And it was so true, you know, and it did work, you know, to a degree, but I remember the first time I walk in and this girl's like, who the are you? And I'm like, detention, you know, immediately like hammered out. No, I didn't give her detention, but she did mop the floors for the next, you know, few months. That was for sure. So anyway, so yeah, you know, setting those boundaries, clearly defining expectations, limitations, And then addressing is directly, you know, are also kind of a hammer, but honey, you know, so you've got to have those hard conversations. And when you have those hard conversations, it's going in with direct authority and just saying what you want. Can you talk to me, you know, maybe a time where you had to do that now with guys that you had on the job versus your client? What does that perspective look like? How do you handle that perspective? Yeah. So for me, setting boundaries and setting expectations has always been the easy part. Always, always, always. But once that boundary is broken or on the border of being broken, that's when I find it the hardest because that's when I have to double down and be like, no, these are the boundaries. You're not crossing it. Here's your consequence if you cross it. And then it's the follow through, right? Of what happens if you do, they cross it. And so what happens? And so I think a lot of times it's, you know, one of the job sites that I'm on right now, I'm not going to say with who, but they demoed the, a mirror when it clearly says, do not remove the mirror. So they removed the mirror and I immediately am just like raging. And I'm like, I'm not going to say anything. I don't know if it's broken yet. I don't know if this, I don't know if they removed it on accident, if they had to, because of the countertops, I'm just going to go on site. I go on site. There's a slight little chip and they didn't have an excuse of why they removed the mirror other than They just removed it. Right. So then I get a change order that says reinstall the mirror. And I'm like, no, we're no, we're not. No, we're not doing that. You can eat that cost. And that's where the mama, you know, I joke. Yeah, I jokingly call all of my installers, you know, which means little little children, you And so I'm like, this is no, this is the hammer. I'm not paying for your mistake. And I'm definitely not going to pass that along to my client because you did that. I set the expectation. I set the boundary and you broke it. Here's your consequence. So you can eat the cost of whatever it's going to cost you to reinstall it. And guess what? If you break that mirror, guess who gets to pay for a new one? You do. Why? Because you did all, it's now all of a sudden a chain reaction, you know? Oh, for sure. So I'm not in, it's those types of things where I don't want to do that because I don't want to take money out of, I don't want to charge back. I don't want to take money out of my installer's pocket. Regardless of who it is, the installer, the plumber, the tile guy, the this, the that. I don't want to take money out of anyone's pocket, but I'm certainly not going to be a pushover because if I split this with him now, I'm setting the expectation to always split it moving forward. And if I don't stand my ground on this now, it's such a small thing. It's a mirror. It's not a big deal. But if I don't stand my ground now, it's just going to follow me for the rest of my career. And it's just, I might as well just get a new guy and start fresh with someone else, you know? You know, and I can empathize with that. And I think a lot of it sometimes, you know, we have contracts, there's blueprints, there's all of these things for a reason. And so, you know, a lot of times, even though like, commercial jobs, for instance, even though I go over the blueprints verbally, visually, emailed, it's in their contract, it's highlighted, they have to initial where they're even working on the blueprint. And sometimes, you know, people will say, you know, I can't read blueprints. So then we draw it out. It's, you know, posted wherever, but those that don't, or, If they are not reading those contracts, for instance, I had a guy who I had a job out of state. We demoed a whole floor and then we were moving on to the bathroom. And I said, you know, the pattern changes for the floor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got that. I got that. OK, great. Good job. Four days go by. I walk into the bathroom. Hey, man. Yes, but you just earned three thousand dollars. I'm a change order tile and that's coming out of your pocket plus the labor. It's little things like that. Like, you know, we went over it, documentation, all of these things, that reinforcement and, you know, lucky for me, it could have been a huge detriment and a big chunk out of my pocket and, you know, had a chain reaction. But he knew he realized and he was, you know, a super professional, you know, installer. He just he didn't stop long enough. But he also knew me and knows that I don't tolerate anything like that on a job site. So automatically he was like, I got it. I'm going to demo it out. We'll get it ordered. Holy crap. But what, you know what I mean? Just like a situation like that could, and I've had other situations too, where I come up with a hammer, they come up with a hammer. I come up with a hammer, you know, and it's just a constant, constant. And those are, you know, situations then where you have to ask yourself, you know, as the B master, because if I'm hiring you, I'm the B master. Is that the type of B I'm working with? You know, honey, I want to give to the other workers. And I think, honestly, you can get like that, too, because that energy spreads like wildfire. It does. It really does. It can impede a job. It can slow it down. You know, and being a female in this industry, I'm not a setter. And so then you got that, you know, those bees that all want to get together and, you know, do their own thing, have their bee bromance. You know, it's interesting because that energy does feed, you know, each other. So I find it to be interesting. an absolute, you know, just such an interesting dynamic because even as an entrepreneur, you know, it's, we do it all day long. Are you a hammer? Are you a B kind of metaphor when we're, you know, highlighting how it is that we are and conditioned as business owners. So I think, you know, biggest things on my side is that, um, I think to someone's face, I'm one way. And then I turn right back around to my support system, you know, whether it's in WOFB or with one of my mentors and I'm like, oh, it crushed me to do this today. Like I really had to put the hammer down today. It does not feel good. I don't like it. This was their reaction. I really feel, you know, and it's, I think that that's an important thing to, for people who are on the receiving end of the hammer, that they know that I don't wanna do this. I hope to God that mirror doesn't break because I don't wanna charge you for it, right? I don't want to do the charge back. I get no pleasure in doing a charge back. I get no pleasure in dropping the hammer. I really don't. So it's just always beneficial. And the thing is that, there's other people who have no problem doing it. So I think that's a lot of like, I think that maybe that's like a very niche thing for women to feel like that mom guilt, you know, of like, man, I yelled at my kid today and, you know, or I yelled at my installer today and I feel a little bad, you know, and sometimes you don't because they deserved it. So. True story. So, you know, I think that, you know, also you mentioned money And, you know, we can take the same analogy for money. And a lot of people have a honey fluid approach to money. So many guys that I work with and, you know, even myself, I know that if a job is very stringent and we've stretched here and we stretched here, I love to talk about money even when I have it. When I don't, I think it's always, it's an energy and it's how we also approach those conversations about money. And, you know, being able to be hard about it, like this is what it is. This is what you get paid. It really helps, I think, too, for guys to have accountability. You know, there's so much talk, especially in this industry, like do you charge by the square footage? Do you charge by the day? Do you charge by the job? Do you charge by the hour? Like there's all of these variables. And my approach to, you know, any of that, I come in with honey and I say, what do you value? What is your rate? What do you value yourself at? And I remember a couple of years ago, I had a guy who came in and he's like, I charge $2,000 a day. Okay. Yeah. That was a very hammer approach. Then I had another guy on the same job who's like, oh yeah, I'm like 750 a day. Okay, great. I felt like it was a little honey, but I'm going to respect what he has his value for. But then it's really interesting because that little honey bidder got mad because the hammer, well, he's making that much a day. How come I'm not? And I'm like, Yeah, bro. That works. That's what you valued yourself at. And so then I had to be hammer with that. That's what you wanted. You know, and some people that works for some. Again, that's when those little bees get together and start doing their little busy work together. Anyway, he ended up keeping his honey price, though. Let me tell you that. Listen, you know, I think it's I think it's really important. You mentioned the W.O.F.B. So, guys, if you gals, women flooring dot com is the Web site to get joined, hooked up with the W.O.F.B. get on there, Angie, let's post a question maybe on the Facebook group that is reflecting about how, what is your interactive style ladies? Like, are you a honey, a hammer? Like, how does that work for you? We know that the honey does encourage, you know, strength and flu and being fluid. Well, the hammer is representation of that. Right. But, What are your, I want to know what the listeners have to say. Like, what are your thoughts on Honey Hammer? So let's bring that up in one of the, you know, one of the Facebook groups. Honey feeds growth. Hammer builds strength. How about that? Let's pose that question. I love that. Other thing. So, you know, we have the CTI exam coming up. Yeah, that's exciting. It's super exciting. Right. And so there's a lot of talk around the industry with women and construction and then. lots and lots of energy and talk in the industry just in general through the podcast. Like I'm talking with amazing powerhouse women. And last week I was so excited. I don't know if you saw this or not, but like Katy Perry releases her video woman's world. Right. And she's like, I have that same job sites like, like Katy Perry does. Yeah. Right. So no, that's what I was going to ask. Like, And you, like, I don't know if those of you who saw the video, I'll post it, which, you know, at first, I'm like a huge Katy Perry fan, have been. I kissed a girl. You know, all of this stuff, all of her songs, they're very kitschy. You know, they're very fun. It's the epitome of pop and trendy. Right, right, which I love. And then, like, I watched the video a little bit more, and I'm watching it, and I'm, like, thinking to myself, I mean, I don't know about you, but do you think it was a little satire in a way? I think it was 100% satire. I think it was very much, you know, what is expected of us, you know, and not what is actually... put out, you know, like there's this one part where she's like, um, fueling up, she's at a gas station and she's like putting, um, gasoline in her butt, you know, and that's how she fuels up. And I think that that's like, I honestly think that men, I don't want to say just men, women, everyone, society really has like this idea of like women fuel up by being pretty and women, you know, get their energy from their clothes and this and that. And so while that might be true, that's not actually how it is. Like, I get my energy from my community and I feel uplifted by the women that I surround myself and my male mentors and this industry and, and reading things like rejection proof, you know? So I don't, I think that that's how society views women, you know, and it's, it's funny, but I think that the real ones know that that's not actually who we are. Yeah, you know, I would the first thing that I thought of was, you know, I love me some cute little sexy swimsuits and all of that. But I thought it was definitely exaggerated because I'm thinking to myself, you know, going on to a commercial job site. I've counted before and I've mentioned this before. It's myself and 60 or 70 other men. I'm wearing T-shirts and jeans and a hard hat. I'm getting stairs left and right. And I'm like thinking to myself, this bitch has never been on a job site because if she was in that swimsuit on a job site, dressed like that, regardless if she's Katy Perry or, you know, like, I don't care. Like you, you're going to get the looks. And I think that for me, you know, I know that it was exaggeration, but. you know, it doesn't, the society issues that women already have in construction, I just think for me, I didn't like it too much because we already struggle, you know, we're already the minority on a job site. And for her just to bring that out, I mean, I know that she is trying to encourage like change, I think of like saying, you know, it is a woman's world in her words. But it's you can't say it's going to be a woman's world and then show up in a sequence, all American, you know, stripper swimsuit and a bedazzled screw gun. That's what sells, you know, sex sells. And, you know, we have a very female tile setter. That I think when she really made her break in the industry and in social media, and even to this day, she still gets dragged for wearing leggings or for wearing a tank top. But I mean, she is doing it. You know, she is actually setting tile. She is actually cutting it. And just because she wears leggings and a tank top doesn't mean that she is this or that, you know? And it's, you know, you can call it content creation or whatever, but that's been her style since the beginning when she started laying tile, you know? And what's the difference in her just because she's a quote content creator, right? But then you turn around and you look at another female who's also laying tile in the same outfit, but she's not getting ridiculed. So it's just kind of the constant idea of what women should be in the construction industry. It's just never good enough. And so throwing bikinis into it, it's just always like, come on. Like, do we have to do bikinis into it? You know, you could also look at now I could also look at the Katy Perry video of it's a woman's world. She's dressed like that. She's breaking through glass ceilings like I can be dressed like this. And still, you know, and maybe I'm looking at this all completely wrong. It's just some humor with exaggeration. But I don't know. At the same time, you know, she's singing. It's a woman's world. But being dressed like that and just kind of prancing around, I just, you know. I would really like a real world idea. It's just the, it's not going to happen. And maybe it is God. Maybe I should test the market. Can you imagine if I showed up on one of my jobs? I would have a real big problem with you showing up like that. Oh, come on. You know, there's these women when we know women who are breaking the glass ceiling, you know, we know them. We know women who are they're single moms, they're entrepreneurs, they're business owners. They are going to the trade shows. They are doing they're going to the trainings. They are trainers. They're doing their CTI. They're doing all of this stuff and they're still wearing their leggings. They're still wearing a tank top. or they're wearing shorts, you know, and a tank top to a job site. Why is it that what she wears, what we wear, you know, I'm wearing shorts and a tank top today to go to a job site, you know, like it's not appearance. I think that society just has that. And it's, we're, we're the ones who are breaking glass ceilings, not, Katy Perry. Yeah. It's the, it's the Megan, Megan reigns. It's the Dawn's, you know, it's the, it's Cameron's. It's the, all of these women who are just like, I got a job to do. I'm comfortable and I'm going to kick ass at it. True that girl. This is why I love you so much. You guys today I'm with Angie. Weber through nikotatidesigns.com. Check her out. Also, if you are looking for a CEU for your design space, Cameo Studio Designs now offers a one credit CEU designer dopamine. Check it out. There's some really good stuff that's coming out of designer dopamine training, all about linear LED, all about vibe mapping for where to put lighting in wonderful places. So Check that out. Also, if you are interested in being interviewed on the podcast, check out podcast or email podcast at women flooring dot com. And those of you looking for some great residential or commercial information. materials, check out Laticry.com as well. They offer and have so much amazing products that is available. Coming down the pipeline for the next few weeks, we essentially have Georgia Ezra, creative director of Tile of Ezra out of Australia is coming on. Leslie Godden, one of my favorite journalists in the industry and author of Artisan Magazine. We are so excited, though. Guys, if you are a part of the conversation on the Facebook group through Women Flooring, be sure to log into W-O-F-B and the website, Women Flooring. Get a mentor. You have people like myself, Angie, Michelle Winters, so many more, Rachel Berlin, so many more that are on there. So connect with all of us and womenflooring.com, click join. And then the Facebook group is the W-O-F-B. And the Summer Book Club, we just finished that first book, Breaking Glass Ceilings. How was that for you? I loved it. You know, I really... I think rejection is something that we've always just kind of talked about. And... I think that we manifested that book during coverings this year. Cause the three of us, you know, you, Michelle and I, we just dropped all expectations and we were like, screw it. We're going to ask this. We're going to ask for this. We're going to ask for this. And guess what? It just happened. Like what's the worst that can happen? Yeah. Someone says no. Someone says no. Let's go. So it was just, I think we manifested that because it's been, and the challenge, don't forget if you haven't done your challenge yet for the rejection proof, got to post something about your rejection proof challenge on the Facebook page and WFB. Well, I'm going to do my challenge right now. Are you up for it? Yeah, let's hear it. Angie, can you make me a bedazzled swimsuit in red, white, and blue so I can wear it on a job site next week? Would you do that? Absolutely not. Thank you. Ah, shit. I got to practice some more then. But that felt okay. I felt like you supported me. If you would have said yes, I might have disappointed you. OK, thank you so much for joining me and a part of season two through the podcast. We will talk more and more about honey versus hammer approach in these next upcoming weeks. But also let's hop on Facebook after this, Angie, and let's post it and see what folks have to say about it. So thank you guys so much for joining. And I look forward to next next recording.
